Talk:Hannibal

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Hannibal was son of a Punic Father from Carthage - Hamilcar, and was Son of a European(Iberian)- his Mother was Iberian.

[edit] Hannibal's Ethnicity was African

Yes, and Africa(a massland as Eurasia), specially North Africa is land of many Peoples, less or more more white.

Hannibal's Ethnicity was African - There is ample evidence supporting this from many historical sources. The picture that was placed up there IS NOT a recognized image of Hannibal. Pages with false and distorted info only pollute the wikipedia index. Please do not revert my changes without documenting. Why are people so insecure about this? 64.174.151.22 Talk 00:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I already reverted it. Why? Because

1. You erased an entire infobox. Don't do this. If you don't like the image, see point #2, but erasing the entire infobox either is deliberate vandalism (in which case it gets reverted), or accidental damage (in which case it gets reverted).
2. The image that was there was a depiction of Hannibal - and it is a recognized depiction of Hannibal as seen by the Romans. If this is a misidentified statue, please say so, and where you got your information. If it is an inaccurate depiction, you can explain this in the text. In fact, it may be interesting to the topic to explain why there are inaccurate depictions of Hannibal. Even better, add accurate representations of Hannibal, and point out why it is likely to be a better depiction. This actually improves the article.
3. You bolded large sections of your edit. This is just annoying.
4. Your edit was pretty POV.
5. Your edit smacked of at least unconscious racism. What the heck is an African of the "purist type"?
6. What the heck do rings have to do with it?
7. It can be argued that Carthage is not an African city, but a phonecian colony that just happened to be on the North African coast. In fact, if you dig into the historical records of the Mercenary War there's good evidence that the local people were oppressed by the "colonists", and since Hannibal seems to have been "high in the councils" of Carthage, it is not unreasonable to think he might have been of phonecian stock. The point is, that apart from going back in time and doing a complex physical evaluation and DNA testing, we probably won't ever know for sure. He could have been semitic. He could have been African. Who knows? No one really, we just have contesting theories.

I'm not saying your edit is wrong. It could be more accurate than what is is there now. Your edit did, however, run roughshod over half a dozen social conventions in Wikipedia, say nothing of basic manners.

Because you basically hacked out an "offending viewpoint" (or at least one that seems to be offensive to you), and put in an oppositely slanted one, rather than propose a counterpoint and supporting evidence in contrast to opposing views, I simply reverted your edit rather than go in and try and repair it - that's your job.

Feel free to add your ethnicity arguments back in - multiple viewpoints make for better rounded information - but please try and adhere to wikipedia editing style, rules and conventions, and basic good manners. - Vedexent 03:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And, of course, any arguments about ethnicity should be sourced to a reliable source, else it risks being considered original research and a violation of WP:NOR. --Richard 06:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

One of Hannibal Barca's ancestors was the Punic explorer Mago Barca. He travelled several times across the Sahara and established traderoutes between Carthage and the Sub-Saharan Black African population and friendly contact to the more Caucasian desert inhabitants, whose territory these routes crossed. Wandalstouring

There were several ways for black Africans to the Mediterannean like Egypt, where many Nubian mercenaries worked as archers, Tyros traderoute to Yemen and Somalia along the Red Sea and the Maghreb, there especially Carthage which had landroutes (to the Niger river) and searoutes (Senegal). The existence of Black Africans in the Mediterannean seems evident, among marines in the Persian navy, possibly some priests with Sub-Saharan Black African origins in Punic Africa, etc. Especially the abilities of Nubian archers were highly praised. But Roman texts refering to Hannibal and his troops as Afri and in translations African do not mean Black African, but originating from Punic Africa (area of modern Tunisia) and it usually means in of mixed African origin, especially Lybian(native sedentary Caucasian population of Punic Africa)-Punic. We have too little information about Hannibal Barca's family tree. Most likely he was of Phoenician-Cypriot ancestry like other Punics and for a member of old aristocracy it is likely to have some family link to the Sicilian Greek aristocracy. Black African origins can not be neglected, but are neither proven, although it is likely that the Barca family had connections to Sub-Saharan Africa and family links were a common practice to strengthen such bounds. Next week I will have the books handy to quote.Wandalstouring 09:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

During the Mercenary War independent Punic cities like Utica, which formally had a longstanding alliance with Carthage joined the rebels. It has to be stated, while the usual tribute for the Lybians was 10% (like the tax system in Israel), in wartime it could rise to 50% and the First Punic War was an especially long and expensive war, unseen before on such a scale. The Punic economy had been severely damaged, as can be seen by the lack of available trained rowers (Punic citizen militia units) for the fleet. The inability to finance the demands of the mercenaries and the high reparation payment demands by Rome are likely to have put a continuing effect to this constant rumor of oppression. But one must be careful to conclude the Lybians were constantly exploited. In former Punic Sardinia the native inhabitants revolted for almost a decade against the tremendously high demands of usual Roman peacetime taxiation and rule, resulting a very brutal conquest. Wandalstouring 09:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Race controversey

Some morons today are claiming that Hannibal was a negroid racial type, based purely on the idea that he was born and raised on the continent of Africa. this espite the overwhelming evidence that proves beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt that he was clearly caucasoid. the same troublemakers are also claiming that other famous peoples such as Cleopatra, as well as entire peoples such as the Ancient Egyptians, Libyans and Berbers were not as they appear in all the authentic artwork, and written descriptions, but were part of some mythical ancient black civilization, For shame people, for shame. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

As I pointed out we can not outrule that Hannibal Barca and many other important people in the Mediterannean had Black African ancestors. So what? Especially members of the Barca family are likely to have Black African relatives before moving to Iberia and intermarrying with the local nobility there (Imilke, Hannibal's wife was from Southern Iberia).Wandalstouring 12:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

People! This subject was already discussed! Please read fomer discussions in the Archive. You can find relevant discussion in Hannibal's Ethnicity. The Ogre 15:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, 64.174.151.22 (Talk) arguments, as referenced by Vedexent (African of the "purist type", "rings", etc.), mirror the arguments formely presented (check it!) by a Tom Bailey (Talk) in November 2005. This is strange... The Ogre 17:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out, his family had traditionally important ties to trade with Sub-Saharan Africa, so Black African ancestors are not impossible and I think I remember reading about sceletons with negroid features found in graves decorated with highly crafted artworks, so possibly even Punic nobility had some links to Africa, as well as to Sicilian Greece. This is not much to wonder about, for only the tolls from the cross-Sahara trade brought ~400 silver talents annualy (a budget, enough to finance a considerable military power by itself). But for we do not know for sure the Barca family did have intermarriage with Black Africans besides establishing the trade, it is only speculation. We can state that his ancestors among the Barca family had played a signifanct role in establishing important ties across the Sahara. Rings are nothing specifically Black African, see Plautus' comedy Poenulus about a Punic. The mentioned French source from 1870 is very likely racist, a thread that continues a long time into the last century in many works on Carthage. In British literature for some time the highest praise was to neglect their semitic origins. Today their Cypriot ancestry is often forgotten. Wandalstouring 18:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hannibal was a negro like most if not all cathagian-rulers at that time:

http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=15

No proof there.

The article about Ethiopia is nice to read, but contains no surprising info. It was a very influential country at these times and one of the few rich territories Romans knew, but did not invade.

The coin of Hannibal Barca seems to show negroid features, but there are many coins with images of his family and there are no Black African features visible, so it is very unlikely. You do not need a negroid looking profile to have Black African ancestors, as well as people (like me) could look negroid on such a coin, although there was definetly no Black African in may family tree dating back for several generations. Wandalstouring 20:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The coin of hannibal linked above does not seem to show Black African features, it definitely shows Black African features. Black African features are often rationalized away as being questionable when they describe early prominent historic figures, while caucasion images are considered accurate. Its almost as if the only true Black Africans were indigent. This debate is universal when dealing with prominent Ancient African Civilizations. I've yet to witness a debate over the blackness of an indigent Ancient African Civilization. On the other hand, I've yet not to witness a debate about of the blackness of a prominent Ancient African Civilization. Tom 10/26/06

Sure thing. You know that Wikipedia is about verifiability, right? And published works? And seious academic papers and not websites or personal interpretations of bad photos of ancient weathered coins? Both sides of this debate need to show valid references for their arguments, or go home. If both sides have credible references then perhaps both sides of the argument with their supporting references can be included in the article, and let the reader make up their own mind. But your squabbling is starting to sound like a playground - Vedexent (talk) - 23:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This coin, which deserves to be on the main page with the other coins can be found in the Museo Kercheriano, Rome and is said to be struck by Hannibal himself while he was in Italy. One could debate who is the greater authoriy on Hannibal, the Romans or the British. Col. Hennebert, a leading authority on Hannibal said "We do not posess any authentic portrait of Hannibal" (Histoire d'Annibal, Vol I, p. 495, Paris, 1870). One could wonder why other effigies of Hannibal make him look more like a Roman commander than a North African Commander. After all, these were the people he was conquering. One could also debate if Roman war attire is adequate for riding on an Elephant. I'd also like to comment on your opinion of this being a playground. It's not. There are many Scholarly Americans and a few British who have tried to write Blacks out of history. Not just ancient blacks, but well into the twentieth century. You see this trend with the Buffalo Soldier, who built Fort Seal Oklahoma, saved Teddy Roosevelt and his Rough Riders and ended the Apache threat in Northern Texas. The USS Mason (the only black warship in WWII) which launched into a storm to save an American Fleet after the Mighty British Navy refused the mission. Their medals were held for fifty years and given to them by Bill Clinton after the Navy snuffed their paperwork. The 761st Tank Batallion who knocked down the gates at Hitlers death camps and saved many Jews including a boy who would later become a prominent Rabbi in Tel Aviv, who said that they looked like Black Angels coming through the Gates. (They were later given the name "Liberators" by the Jews that they saved). The Tuskegee Airmen who never lost a bomber to a German Fighter Pilot in a dogfight. I can go on. There was a concentrated effort to write these and other dynamic black figures out of history in the same lifetime as some of Wikipedias readers. Please understand that this is not a playground or an arbitrary sparring match. It is a serious quest for truth. Tom 10/27/06

Doesn't matter. There is no claim made on Hannibal's racial origin in this article, only his cultural heritage. I want a waterproof evidence for his race and there is none. You try to point out racial origin by feature on one old coin, while there are many old coins and Carthage only used few coining dies. For this reason your presentation his highly doubtable. Do you have a numismatic analysis for this coin, so we could at least verify what it supposedly shows and whether it is real or a motage. Thank you. None here wants to supress Black Africans (I'm personnaly working on the topic to present them more in wikipedia). We simply do not want to present hoaxes because it affects our serious material about verified Black African achievements and people. Besides stop mixing up the racial prejudiced US of 1950 and the Roman Republic or the Greeks. Read for example Homer, the Iliad, he gives a description of black soldiers without racial prejudices, vfurthermore we do have records of real and verified black soldiers and emperors throughout the antiquity, but NOT Hannibal. It may be possible that he had black African ancestry like other members of the Punic people, but that is all. Wandalstouring 16:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Think for a moment. You said "There's a chance that he may have had black African ancestry". Being from Africa I would think that there's only a chance that he had caucasion ancestry. The non African has to be proven, not the African. No one has been required to show definitive proof that he was Europeon in appearance. But yet they are believed. There are no waterproof Europeon effigies of Hannibal. Just a bunch of them. And the Europeon effigies of him vary greatly. And yet they are believed. The coin was not cast in Carthage. It was cast in Italy. So Carthages limitations in casting don't apply. One also may cast doubt on the Italian museum that possesses the coin. It amazes me that he can be portrayed as a Roman or Greek commander when he had none of their culture or blood running through his veins. Surely that has to create some questions. The fact that you are working on the topic to bring more Black History to Wikipedia shows the lack of correct Black History in Wikipedia. Thank you for your honorable efforts. That which I have presented here is as credible as the alternative speculations. Tom 10/27/06

No, it isn't, your sources prove nothing. First of all, Hannibal belonged without doubt to the Punic upper class. This means he had some Phoenician or Cypriot lineage. We do know that the Punic nobility intermarried with various groups they had contact with, like the Greek or the Samnites. We have no written source about intermarriage with Black Africans. It was reconstructed that the Punics did have traderoutes established across the Sahara and slaves were one of the most valuable articles, but the nobility was not born from slaves. In an old book on Punic graves that was still influenced by racial bias (it was from the 1950s) it was noted that a richly decorated grave was discovered, but it contained just the sceleton of a negroe woman. The interpretation went so far as to see a very loyal servant of the godess presented with a statue next to the grave and proposing she was likely a high ranking sacral prostitute. This is all clear evidence about black Africans in Carthage. The portrays of Hannibal with Greek feature are probably legitimate for as far as we know his teacher was himself raised after the Lycurgan education of Sparta. Futhermore it is proven that the Punics did adopt Greek customs. The helmet is a sign of his rank as strategus, showing him with a Romanized helmet, hairstyle etc. can be correct for he spent a lot of his time in Italy (there are Roman rumours he even had a mistress in Southern Italy) and got his hands on Roman armor. As far as facial features are concerned, the Greek portraying of that time idealised the facial features in accordance with certain rules concerning the perfect beauty, in contrary Roman and Italian portrays were highly accurate, even if the features were not complimentary. what you totally mix up is some basic knowlege about genetics. There is a genotype and a phenotype, the genotype is the genetic information where samples of your ancestors are preserved if you received these parts during the insemination. The penotype are the visible features and the do not contain all features contained in the genotype. While you have a strong emphasis on African Americans, genetically the carry quite a lot of DNA not found among Black Africans. So they have other ancestors from different areas as well (Natives, Europeans, Asians, etc.). Do you see the difference between African Americans and Black Africans (a lot of them have lightly colored skin)? The point is we do not have specifically Black African noted for Hannibal and unlike other famous persons of the Antiquity he was not named Hannibal the Black. This does not mean he did not have a Black African great-grandmother or else, but there is absolutely no prove. If you want to start contributing something useful, start an article about Punic burials and sceleton findings, there you will find scientific information how many sceletons with possible Black African features have been found. That's all. Wandalstouring 23:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you think this coin held at Museo Kercheriano, Rome a fraud? Would you care to explain to the Museums curators why you think their exibit inaccurate? This world renowned museum displays this coin as a likeness of Hannibal. Col. Hennebert (whom I'm sure you're familiar with) has no respect for the most common and popular depictions of Hannibal. Is he also a fraud? If the Museum and Col. Henneberts display and opinion isn't proof please outline clearly the exact thing that you would need to observe to believe. Please also outline the strength of the evidence that governs your current belief. In other words outline what you currently consider proof and its strength. Also, if he were named Hannibal the Black most caucasions would probably say that it was synonymous with swarthy and not truly black. And so the debate would just continue. You mentioned that Roman portrayals were very accurate. This coin was cast in Rome and is displayed in a major Roman Museum. Do you now not believe the Romans? Do you have proof that Hannibal had a White African Grandmother? Finding the grave of one Black African woman of prominence in Africa would be like finding the grave of one prominent Native American in the USA. In other words , superficial at best. Do you suppose that the land was uninhabited before the whites came? I believe there were centuries of Black Africans living in that land before Rome ever knew it was there. Carthage was well endowed with natural resources. So the inhabitants of that land were not indigent. Modern historians would have us believe that these early inhabitants were just waiting for the whites to arrive to enslave them and show them what to do with their own natural resources. Many of the slaves were slaves of other prominent blacks in Carthage. Often times slave and slave owner looked alike. I am not declaring so much that what I'm suggesting is proof, as much as I'm declaring that the theory that he was white is at least equally suspicious and at best, also unproven. Tom 10/28/06

1. Your real knowledge of African history and Black African history is a big hole.

2. "Museo Kercheriano" Does not exist, but several black facts sites mention it -> a hoax. Of course it could be that they mean "Museo Kircheriano" that does exist, but such a simple fact shows that all these sites have copyedited information without verificating, even missing to delet the typos. Even the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a better copyedit besides being as fake.

3. The same for Col. Hennebert another hoax from http://www.users.fast.net/~blc/blac2.htm he is by no means a recognized authority on Hannibal. In 1893 he wrote a book: LA GUERRE that is all. At that time there were several ideas in France that the North Africans were strongly influenced by black Africans and this made them intellectually inferior, but very cruel and bloodthirsty. So if you want to use a source quote it in detail and not just some hearsay.

4. How to prove a likeliness would be numerical data from the lots of sceleton findings of Punic upper and lower class stating they do show some Black African features (from a serious author). This is noneexistant and Black African features of sceletons were noted even during deepest racial prejudices and there was no overwhelming black population nor were they found to dominate the nobility.

5. You mix up coins and marble portrays.

6. I checked the picture on the coin, it is a montage of the real coin in the museum. Wandalstouring 18:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Make it part of the story please 213.101.237.7 19:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From Pee Review

I rewrote this completely after I saw it on VFD. --~

Jacques Pirat, Esq. Converse : Benefactions : U.w.p.

22:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)